Facts, not flattery, about same-sex attraction

Nature/Nurture… is where the problem seems to lie.  Because of all the artificial synthetic steroidal hormones ingested by a majority of our populations (thanks to Planned Parenthood et al)
we have male FISH with EGGS… The sperm count for the general population of males has been steadily declining… Our food supply, is saturated with HORMONES.... PLASTICS which mimic Estrogen..are everywhere… in microwave dishes and food wraps.
Then there is the DIVORCE RATE...which leaves children in a FATHERLESS STATE....even though visitation happens… it is not the same as the BONDING needed for both boys and girls… Boys need to be SHOWN how to be a man.... Girls need to be able to flirt in a safe environment so that their skills in choosing a man will be well honed… Sadly, the overwhelming female population in our schools and other places of adult mentors makes it even more difficult NOT to have a psycho/sexual crisis and as a result an Identity Crisis.  Add to this mix...the very warm welcome that the homosexual community offers our children and young adults… and once they are talked into “coming out” it is a done deal… they have just sealed their confusion with the LABEL of HOMOSEXUALITY.  Many people struggle with all these problems and never act on them.. Obviously this is no different from someone who has strong heterosexual drives… but controls themselves.  If however, they welcome the thoughts and ideas and porno etc. then even though they have not physically acted out...they have done so in their minds...willingly...this is different than those who struggle against such temptations.  God made us MALE and FEMALE… equal but different… so there is no such thing as a homosexual...but rather a broken heterosexual...otherwise God’s Word is not true…

All of us need compassion and respect..and we will be more helpful if we are loving and not condemning… but keep reading and researching...and try and be part of the solution instead of the problem...so check out your medicine cabinet.
Are you taking Birth Control Pills, Hormone Replacement Therapy or male steroids

TNPreacher commits the recurring error on the Sin of Sodom? Does he?

This is the usual misapplication of the word of God concerning the the sin of Sodom given by homosexuals - “Read your Ezekial and Gospel. The sin was arrogance, inhospitality, not caring for the poor. Even if you want to look at your interpretation of the sexual aspects, it was rape, not consenting sex between adults”.

The one who posted this misapplication of Scripture forgot the verse in Jude 7
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.”

“Strange” in strange flesh is the Greek word for another - another flesh.  One comments on this “strange flesh” thus - “and going after strange flesh; or “other flesh”; meaning not other women besides their own wives, but men; and designs that detestable and unnatural sin, which, from these people, is called sodomy to this day” (John Gill). So the sin of Sodom was the sin of homosexuality; it was strange in that homosexuality is unnatural - See Romans 1:26-27.

From what I have read, there is a large group of people who are more affected by adversity in the home (or womb) than others because of their personality.  For these people, the urge to get validation and affirmation from a same sex person, through sexual contact, is high.  But, in many cases it is a misplaced, misunderstood urge that is trying to find fulfillment in a way where it simply can’t be found, in a surrogate relationship rather than by wholeness with the adult figure of one’s youth were the relationship and validation were missing and yet craved.

For this particular group of people, homosexuality is a choice because it is something they do of freewill.  It is a misunderstood choice because it is acting on erroneous information.  This information fills the feelings and in the person’s eyes become’s difficult to separate, but it is still a choice.

How many of us fulfill longings in ways that are not good for us to do.  Many.

My view of homosexuality is like this: 

First, God says it is a sin, so that means it is always a choice.  S

econd, every person has different struggles, many of which have a genetically or personality orientated component. That is to say, they are more susceptible to temptation.  Put it another way:  particular temptations are more tempting to them than to others.  But each of us has different tempations. 

Third, if we understand the particular fallacies of thinking and motives of the heart that are contributing to this temptation being stronger, that can help.  Sometimes godly counsel helps the ungodly lead lives more in line with God’s good will for them, even if they do not choose him.

Fourth, ultimately, if something is a sin, it cannot be reduced to intellectual understanding as a solution, nor to emotional healing, nor to physical causes alone.  Even so, we cannot negate that these things can lesson the temptation.  Marriage counseling is about helping people see the truth that exists.  And in the same way, homosexuality has a component of helping a person to see their attraction for what it really is.  Chemical addicts can find help in chemical aids that slowly wean them from the effects of the addiction.  Even so, in all these cases, a person has to be willing to turn from it or it will not last.  This is an act of the heart, the will.

When you put it all together, you see that nature, nuture, and personal choices all present a person with a different but equally difficult set of tempations that are there to be overcome.  And nature, nurture, and personal assitance can be strong components of a person’s recovery. 

But since homosexuality is ultimately a sin, we have to always stop to say, for a Christian, “There is no tempation taken you but such as is common to man, but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that which you are able, but will, with the tempation, also provide a way of escape that you may be able to bear it.”

And for the non-Christian we have to admit that ultimately they will be slaves to some sin or another and there is no intellectual cure when that particular sin is the expression of their knowingly wrongful desires. “The natural man does not understand the things of God”, and a person without Christ cannot obey God, it is impossible.  He is a slave to sin.  A slave by choice. 

“Each man sins when he is led astray by his own evil inclinations,” ..."Let no man say when he is tempted and God is tempting him.” God does not tempt a person to be homosexual.  But he does draw us to be free from it.

The thing I like about most conversations that make sense about homosexuality is focusing on the tangible measurable harm that occurs in a population group given to homosexuality, and comparing that to non-homosexual groups.  And what we find is that it is medical, physically, emotionally, and societally harmful, because of what it is and how it is practiced.  That there are other wrongs that go on in the world cannot and should not detract from a straight up admission of the truth on the way. And what is the truth?  Bottom line, homosexuality is much more dangerous to a person’s psyche, and body and to our society as a whole, than heterosexuality.  Monagamous homosexual intercourse does not produce AIDS.  Male to male sexuality, especially without 20th century medical devices, leads to death, and the disintegration of a person emotionally. 

Sure, there are people who seem to function well in that life style.  But look at the whole.  Look at the whole.  And at least admit the facts:  “Yes, it is more dangerous, all things considered, granted.”

Why is it so hard for people to admit the facts?  Because it disagrees with their philosophy. Because it is a matter of the will:  they don’t WANT to admit it is more dangerous because that interferes with the choices they wish to make for themselves or allow others to make.  So they always focus on exceptions, on the fringe things, on the loopholes.  They seldom just tell it like it is on the harm aspects:

“Son, if you choose homosexuality, you have a higher chance of dieing young, getting depressed and wanting to commit suicide, and having a life-taking sexual disease.  The body’s parts weren’t made to put your frontal part into someone’s back part.  I can medically describe the destruction it does to both of you, and that’s not homophobia, that’s the same facts and my telling you these is just the same as telling you about what behavior leads to any other STD and what effect it has on your body.”

“And son, it’s surely not because people in the U.S. disapprove that all this goes on, though in the United States that is going to be an added burden if you go this way.  You see, in countries where they embrace it the data is the most striking--they have been free to do it and have trying to make it guilt free as possible, welcome and accepted-the results are still staggering.  So the only difference in the U.S. is that there is more harassment. But people are still dieing without the harassment.  It’s a bad way to choose to live.  It’s a bad temptation to give in to.  It’s a desire that leads to harmful actions if pursued.”

If someone wants help to escape homosexuality, the conversation begins differently if they are interested in doing so through the help of their Lord and Savior, differently than it would be if they want to have a more comfortable life on earth without homosexual tendencies but yet live without God none the less.  To want to change without turning to God, they’ll end up just be trading what sin fills up their life.  Some sin may be less damaging on earth--even good works that spring from pride can be seen as beneficial--but sins that appear to do less earthly damage still do nothing to save your soul.

You’re wrong Numor, there IS a harm, and it is most often born out by children.

The reason Mary Cheney’s son will grow up without a father is not homophobia—but it IS because of bigotry.  Ms. Cheney’s own bigotry, and intolerance for the opposite sex.

Little Samuel will grow up in a broken home because of his mother’s choice.  No one elses.

So what if homosexuality IS a choice?
The only question one need ask oneself about homosexuality is “is it wrong?”.  And the answer to that question is NO.  It is NOT wrong, because nothing which causes no harm* and which doesn’t involve anyone unwilling or underage is wrong.  There’s simply no moral basis on which to judge it wrong, and scripture doesn’t count.

So whether people engage in gay acts because of some insuperable genetic imperative, curiosity or just plain boredom, it doesn’t matter as long as they’re not hurting anyone else.  They’re not sick, they’re not on some sort of self-destructive spree and they’re not going to Hell because there’s NO SUCH PLACE.

I get that some of YOU have a problem with it, but that’s exactly what it is.  YOUR PROBLEM. 

And if you can’t handle the idea that some people may not want to live their lives the way you want them to, then they’re not sick, YOU are.

Get your noses out of other people’s business and go back to your pious little lives.

(And by the way, before the stoning begins, I’m not gay myself, I’m a happily married father.  I just don’t believe I have the right to tell people how to live, and I don’t believe YOU have that right either.)

*No it doesn’t.  Stop your little monologue about the breakdown of the family right there, because homosexuality DOESN’T destroy families.  Homophobia does.  Intolerance does.  BIGOTRY does.

Silvername would be right only if he equates desire with lust. If God, as Silvername appears to do, equates an involuntary response to sin, then Hitchens is right and God is a fool. Luckily for me, I have no doubts about God being wiser than Silvername.

Jos, the laws say nothing about homophobia, and the issues have nothing to do with “homophobia”. Any phobia is an irrational and persistent fear. I am firmly opposed to gay marriage that distorts the meaning of marriage, and I am opposed to many other aspects of the gay agenda, but that doesn’t make me homophobic. I have no fear of gays.

When your argument is weak on logic, just characterize the opposition as “irrational”, use the term often enough and widely enough that people begin to believe it, and half your battle is already won.

And Michael, there is one ongoing study that tells us something very significant about the gay lifestyle. Whatever the causes, the life expectancy of practising homosexuals in North America is about half that of the population at large. This is a factor of particular significance to insurance companies.

Sorry, Lyon, that’s nonsense. Even granted that homosexuality is an aberration, this study says no more about the incidence of all those negatives among homosexuals than a study of infidelity and promiscuity among heterosexual males says about heterosexuality. In other words: The fact that lots of heterosexuals are promiscuous does not mean that heterosexuality per se is promiscuous. Ditto homosexuality. All such studies tell us is that X percentage of homos or heteros chose as individuals to engage in particular behaviors, for reasons such studies usually don’t address. The point: Such studies yield no reliable conclusions about homosexuality or heterosexuality in and of themselves.

Yedge picked a poor parallel when he compared homosexuality to murder. As Anon pointed out, homosexuality is a state, murder is an act. And John is right to say that no one choses to be homosexual (or heterosexual for that matter). But then no one wakes up one morning and decides to be a pedophile, either. I can’t imagine anyone chosing to develop a sexual obsession with pre-pubescent children. No one choses to be a pariah. So a pedophile could claim—as legitimately as a homosexual might and certainly more legitimately than a murderer could—“that’s just the way I am.” But that would hardly excuse his (and most of them are, indeed, male) actions.

In the name of “Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms”, lawmakers and politicians decided that homophobia is no longer allowed in Europe!

“If male homosexuality = serious promiscuity, inability to maintain sexual fidelity, partner abuse and psychological and medical illnesses associated with the lifestyle, are we then to conclude that male heterosexuality ipso facto = monogamy, fidelity, partner support, and psychological and medical health?”

It is not wise to use the two equations because they are not of the same level. Homosexuality is an aberration (i.e. a condition markedly different from the norm). Heterosexuality is the norm as shown by the fact that everyone --homo or heterosexual-- came from a man and woman.

“What sets this site apart from those other “researchers” who started out with a fixed conclusion and proceeded to “prove” its truth by tendentious studies, etc.?”

This article makes a lot of sense because it is based on human nature. It does not try to ‘prove’ the truth. It illustrates the truth for us to see the correct picture of reality.

“As I live, declares the Lord GOD, Sodom, your sister, and her daughters, have not done as you (Jerusalem) and your daughters have done. Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it.”
-- Ezekiel 16: 48-50.

In other words: Sexual immorality was an aggravating factor, but it wasn’t the issue.

Let’s cut to the chase.

1. If male homosexuality = serious promiscuity, inability to maintain sexual fidelity, partner abuse and psychological and medical illnesses associated with the lifestyle, are we then to conclude that male heterosexuality ipso facto = monogamy, fidelity, partner support, and psychological and medical health? Do “studies show” that this is the case?

2. There are Web sites featuring people with very impressive letters after their names and very impressive professional and institutional affiliations that would have us believe that the earth is 6,000 years old, that Noah took dinosaurs aboard the ark, and that biological evolution by natural selection is a fiction. What sets this site apart from those other “researchers” who started out with a fixed conclusion and proceeded to “prove” its truth by tendentious studies, etc.?

“Homosexuality is a state”

So where is the test?  So many gays claim they are what they are, and cannot change, and that they were born that way, and that it’s a biological fact.

So where is the test?  Can we test the blood of an infant to know whether he is going to be gay or straight?  Can we check the DNA of an adult?  No, nothing of the sort exists in any form.  We just have to take their word for these things… and accept them as scientific fact?  LOL!  Get real.

John, I chose to be attracted to women, and not to men.  I could just as easily have chosen otherwise.  So could you.  Ask a sailor or prisoner whether or not it’s possible for a “heterosexual” male to be attracted to another male.  Happens every day…

“Homosexuality does not necessarily result in homosexual acts.”
Oh really?  Since when?  Since when is homosexuality a state?
Since when do we characterize ourselves by something that we would not or do not do? 

“something must be wrong with me because I can’t help being heterosexual.”
Yep, something is wrong with you.  I’m not trying to be mean, I am being honest.

“Homosexuality should be treated sympathetically for what it is: a psychological disorder. Not so! The Holy Word of God clearly declares that sodomy is sin.”
Sodomy is a sin..but think on this: could psychological methods be helpful in keeping from sinning?

“You have to distinguish between same-sex attraction (which is the temptation to sin) and the actual practice (e.g. sodomy, which is yielding to the temptation).”
I agree, and therefore I think that people with SSA should not call themselves homosexual if they do not practice it.

I think the point made by Kenneth Simmons bears repeating. It is a useful clarification when approaching this issue. There is an important distinction between same sex attraction and homosexual acts, the latter involving a conscious choice implying a corresponding responsibility. The attraction itself is morally indifferent. Nevertheless, a refusal to acknolwedge that it is a disorder is culpable, because that is a first step on the slippery slope to actual homosexual acts. I find that, often, the attraction itself is condemned with the same vehemence as the acts, and this not only contributes to the siege mentality so common to homosexuals but also closes them to possible help.