Hey Christiane:

I’ve got your equivalence right here. Take a look at this list of Muslim murder sprees (i.e., violent terrorist attacks). Thousands of them since 9-11-01 alone.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/TheList.htm

When it’s even possible to compile a database like this of Christian or Jewish atrocities visited on non-combatants in the name of God—a list so stark and repetitive it reads like a medical registry tracking the spread of a disease—then we can talk about equivalence. Silly little girl.

David Page said, “The history of the last 2,000 years is littered with the bodies of people killed by Bible believing Christians.”

I would add that the last 100 years has seen the largest numbers of Christians killed EVER in a 100 year period. These Christians were martyred for their belief, not because they instituted violence.

David, the godless atheistic regimes of Adolph Hitler and Joseph Stalin killed more people in the last century than even the WORSE Christians could have murdered.

The Communists are still at it in China, Cuba, and North Korea. Perhaps you should remember the grand numbers of godless who continue to kill today.

Mary Ann,

I did mention Communism and Fascism (Stalin and Hitler) in my original post. You have failed to mention the 2 to 3 million women and girls mutilated and burned during the Witch Hunts. I’m sure your familiar with Exodus 22:18 which says “Thou shall not suffer a Witch yo live”. How do you interpret that passage?
During the 100 Years War, Catholic and Protestant armies slaughtered civilian populations with abandon. Later, Jews and Unitarians had to flee for there lives to Muslim controlled parts of Europe to avoid Christian persecution. That’s why there there are Unitarian churches in Transylvania today.
Right up to the 20th century Jewish populations were decimated by raging mobs of Christians. For centuries Ghetto streets ran with Jewish blood.
We all know what problems the world is facing today because of Muslim fundamentalism. They are almost beyond my understanding. But they follow a pattern that has become all too familiar over the centuries. Fundamentalists, it seems, are all cut from the same cloth.
I listen to Christian radio stations and I am sometimes appalled by what I hear. I hear a desperation to keep women in the inferior role. I hear hear their insistence on maintaining their perceived right to persecute homosexuals. I hear perpetual and mindless war mongering. They talk about Jesus but they have never really listened to Him.
I look forward to your reply.

“You have failed to mention the 2 to 3 million women and girls mutilated and burned during the Witch Hunts.”

This is a persistent but clearly absurd Wiccan/feminist myth. In fact, the number of victims did not exceed 150,000 at the highest estimate (most serious researches believe it was really about a half of this number), one-quarter of them were not women but men, and the majority of witch trials ending in a death sentence had been carried by Protestants, not Catholics. But propagandically useful stories die hard.
For more reliable information see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch-hunt#Number_of_executions

Oh, one more thing:

“During the 100 Years War, Catholic and Protestant armies slaughtered civilian populations with abandon.”

During the Hundred Years War Protestantism does not yet exist. One should know history well in order to talk about it.

Mariusz,
You cherrypicked my post. You chose to respond to the only part of it you thought you could refute. Because records have been destroyed, lost, or purged, 150,000 is much too low a figure. There are estimates much higher than mine. By the way, where records exist, women account for more than 90% of the murdered.
I find it interesting that you blame women for inflating the numbers. You call it a “Wiccan/feminist myth”. Why do you feel the need to minimize the death toll?
I agree that far more women were murdered by Protestants than by Catholics. The Catholics, however, got the ball rolling. They also were responsible for a little foible called the Inquisition. That slaughter of innocents lasted for almost 1,000 years. Got any numbers on that death toll?
What’s bothering the religious conservatives, Muslim and Christian alike, is the prospect of dealing with women as equals. Do you think misogyny doesn’t exist in the Catholic Church? The successes in the struggle for womens rights are the reason for the resurgence of conservative religion. All this Christian and Muslim whining about declining morals is just a good, old fashioned backlash against womens’ rights.

I’m sorry Mariusz, I meant the 30 Years War. Do you think the dead will mind my mistake?

David,

Sentimental rhetoric, agenda-driven estimates and glaring errors have no place in an objective debate. I cannot speak for the dead but I’m sure the living must reject them if they want to be considered intelligent human beings. And my “need to minimize the (fictitious) death toll” comes from my respect for the factual truth, the only factor that really matters in analysing history.

And yes, I got the numbers on the death toll of the Inquisition (incidentally, there were two main Inquisition tribunals, Spanish and papal, and neither one of them “lasted for almost 1,000 years”.) Contrary to the propagandistic “black legend”, the Spanish Inquisition, in its 356 years of existence, sentenced to death between 1 and 2 percent of those it investigated, which meant between 2,000 and 3,000 people. Also, roughly 3/4 of its activities took place within its first 50 years (source: Susan McCarthy Meliore, “The Spanish Inquisition,” Chelsea House Publishers: Philadelphia, 2002, page 103.). The record of the medieval/papal Inquisition is not easy to summarise in the same way because of its complex character and chronological-geographical discontinuity, thus any attempt at estimating the number of its victims must be unreliable. If you know of any facts to the contrary, David, make sure to mention them - quoting the sources - in your reply.

Speaking of women’s rights: In the past, when Christianity had been the ruling ideology, inquisitors and witch hunters killed temporary bodies in order to save immortal souls from eternal damnation. In our times we kill millions of unborn babies in the name of the ruling ideology of individual rights. Different ideologies, same results. (I wonder what people will say about our priorities two hundred years from now?) If we condemn killing in principle, we must condemn abortion as
well. Do you condemn abortion, David? (And, please, remember: if you try to consider aborted foetuses - contrary to the medical findings - not fully human, that’s exactly what the Nazis said about the Jews...)

Having no religious faith, I can perhaps approach this topic without prejudice. I think Christiane Amanpour’s main point was that some proponents of all three religions aggressively seek political advantage. That would be hard to deny.

More controversial was her relatively sympathetic view of all three religions. She interviewed Karen Armstrong, a one-time Catholic nun, and a reputed apologist for religions in general, including Islam. I would be more inclined to say that Islam is the most militant of the three monotheistic religions, at least in the present day.

Allah commanded the prophet Muhammad to take up arms and fight for his religion, which he did with great success, thanks in part to God’s helpful intervention. I get the impression that most modern day Muslims take the word of the Qur’an more literally than most Jews or Christians take their holy books, and that’s what makes Islam the greater threat.

To CA from CN - one scary person to another: poppy cock

Charles

I agree with David Fairthorne that Islam, in the present day, is the greater threat. I think is because fundamentalist Christians exist largely in secular democracies. These secular societies limit the damage the fundamentalists can do.

Mariusz,
The dead I referred to were those killed during the
30 years war. I never said anything about the number
killed by the various Inquisitions. I’ll take your word for it that many were just tortured and released. What’s your point?

Mariusz,
All abortions are a tragedy. Some are necessary but more are not. I’m not a woman so I will never have to make that unfortunate choice. My wife and I have three children and we haven’t killed any of them.
I don’t believe the morning after pill, especially after a rape, is in any way immoral. I find it amusing that social conservatives want every child to be born but don’t think they have any responsibility for them after that. Did you know that, in America, abortions went down every year under the Clinton administration? They have gone up every year under the Bush administration.
The idea you have put forth that the horrors perpetrated against women by Inquisitors and witch finders was justified by their salvation is just sick and delusional.
Don’t you think Christians would be better served if they concentrated less on the Ten Commandments (Old Testament) and more on the Beatitudes (Actual words of Jesus)? Doesn’t the Parable of the Prostitute negate the condemnations of the Old Testament?

Basically, God’s Warrior’s just points out to me that everyone thinks they are right (Jew, Christian, Muslim), and those who have less to lose are willing to fight more than those who are comfortable. I don’t need to defend my beliefs or belittle others’. That said, it is easy to be scared and natural to be wary of someone or something I don’t understand. Just human nature.