Minor correction:

You believe that the evidence points to evolution based on natural selection.

You believe in an Interpretation, you are a believer.

Happy Thanksgiving, all.
I am outa here… and have much better things to do.

Here is what is nonsense and a ridiculous waste of time… to argue about things that are essentially unprovable, like miracles. The issue is not so much whether they occurred but what or who was the cause of these events and how accurate were the perceptions of those who were ‘witnesses.’

Since you cannot even prove the easily provable events to those who do not want believe, what you people are doing is totally absurd.

Believe the evidence that you want to believe and the interpret them how you will. But this debate has no purpose except that we just want our ‘opponent’ to agree with us… and it ain’t going to happen.

Jürgen Siemer,

I am not a “believing evolutionist”

I believe the evidence that points to evolution by natural selection.

That’s an entirely different thing.

You, on the other hand, believe that the creator of the universe got incarnated as an itinerant preacher, raised his friend Lazarus from the dead, died on a cross and then came back to life. But you have no evidence to support that specific tale.

As for this purported series of visions in Portugal, if there’s one thing we should know by now it’s how quickly hysteria can spread. I suggest you read up on the McMartin pre-school case. Lives were ruined on the basis of hysterical nonsense.

Emberson, the most recent miracle with thousands of witnesses happened in Fatima, Portugal. It was well documented by atheists and sceptics.

Wait for a miracle to come along. And keep waiting, I would suggest.

Steven, as a good Jew you want a miracle as evidence for God, for salvation, for Jesus etc.

As a believing evolutionists you have excluded the possibility of miracles.

So what do you do about that?

What witnesses?

I have no idea what you’re talking about.

Steven Meyer
You are right. No one can prove to you that Jesus Christ has a divine nature, rose from the dead and is now in heaven, although if you consider the witness to Christianity over the centuries you might infer it. However you can act on your own behalf. It requires one thing – humility. If you are humble, you can ask God for the the answer and you will receive it.

Well I guess no one can offer me any actual evidence for the truth of the central tenets of Christianity.

“The one I CAN trust the most (I have been convinced) is the Jesus whose words I read in the gospels”

Again, you’re making a judgement call. You’re assuming that the Gospels are an accurate account of real events and that your interpretations are correct. You have zero evidence for that. It’s another judgement call.

No matter how hard you try, you cannot escape judgement calls.

Yes, Steven, we must all make our choices (‘judgment calls’ as you term them). Know this, however: I do not trust my own judgment nor that of any human being… they all prove themselves to be less than fully trustworthy and I am certainly among them in my fallibility. So who can I trust? Must I live in fear and hostility? The answer is “No.”

The one I CAN trust the most (I have been convinced) is the Jesus whose words I read in the gospels. He is not just human. He speaks to my heart and mind like no one else. Perhaps you do not hear what I hear; as He said, his sheep hear the voice of their Shepherd… and follow closely. Goats go their own way. So I have given my entire self into His care and I am committed to His salvation and His spiritual Kingdom. Hence I have inner peace and moments of great joy, despite the fact that life is difficult.

“I know Him whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that He is able to guard that which I have committed to Him until that day.” (2 Timothy 1:12)

“He who calls you is faithful, and He will surely do it.” (1 Thessalonians 5:24)

Bruce Atkinson

“We never have enough information to be 100% certain of anything”

Quite right. I am never 100% sure of anything. For all I know Jesus is my only hope of avoiding spending eternity in hell.

But, in the end, we have to make judgement calls. And my judgement is that hell does not exist.

Of course, your belief that hell exists is also a judgement call.

“we tend to believe what we WANT to believe”

I’m very aware of that tendency. In science we call it “confirmation bias” – seeking out evidence that supports your cherished beliefs while ignoring evidence that contradicts it. As Richard Feynman put it:

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself—and you are the easiest person to fool.”

The trouble is, when it comes to the core tenets of Christianity, or Islam, or whatever, there is zero evidence to assess. You certainly haven’t given me any.

The following is for all who are curious about why people (in general) believe in anything, not just religious belief but political and philosophical ideas as well.

WHY PEOPLE BELIEVE WHAT THEY DO: The Four Principles
Below is a psychologist’s view of why people believe what they do (from a purely human viewpoint).

Principle #1: All beliefs are a choice. Because none of us really “knows it all” (none of us is an omniscient God), when we believe anything strongly, the truest thing we say about it is that this or that is what we choose to believe. No one forces us to believe anything and we don’t all agree to what is true.

Principle # 2: Our beliefs are informed choices. Those of us with some integrity will want our beliefs to jive with objective reality. Therefore, we will examine the available evidence, both from our personal experience and scientific research. If we are religious, we will examine what the Scriptures say and what the accepted leaders of the church have said. We will weigh the evidence, like a judge or jury, and we will come up with a verdict.
Our beliefs can be informed by many different sources of information and from many different authorities. I use the word authorities, meaning that since we cannot know with certainty much of anything by ourselves, to some extent we have to accept someone’s else word for what is true. We can accept particular religious authorities, particular scientific authorities, particular philosophers, our parents, our friends, our culture (what is currently “politically correct” to believe, etc.).
Of course, we can also accept the information from our own senses and personal experiences as our primary authority for what is accurate and true. This is a very fallible source of information, and we would be deceiving ourselves to fully credit it, but we can do it, it is an available choice.
Who is to say who is right? So unless there is an “Absolute Authority” that is, an omniscient God who clearly informs us, no source of information is completely trustworthy.

Principle #3. Given the above uncertainties about who and what to believe, we tend to believe what we WANT to believe. Because of this, our beliefs tend to reveal what is true regarding our inner desires more than what they reveal about an objective reality.
If we have strong enough emotional reasons to believe one way or another, and our integrity is suspect, then all the evidence in the world is unlikely to suffice. We will insist on believing the world is flat no matter what the “authorities” tell us.
No one can make us believe differently than what we already strongly believe. The exception is this: IF (and only if) we are quite honest and therefore humble about our own insufficient knowledge and imperfect biological equipment, and IF we are presented with sufficient evidence, then we may be convinced to change our point of view.

Principle #4: We never have enough information to be 100% certain of anything— but we believe things anyway. We make up the difference with faith. Faith is trusting our sources of information when we cannot see or know it all.

Who (or what authority) do you trust enough to believe what you believe?

Steven Meyer,
Thanks for responding. I am fully aware that you are committed to your point of view… which includes your chosen ‘faith’ that Jesus is not divine (even if there is a God, which you doubt). Again, no one can convince another person of something they do not want to believe. As a clinical psychologist, I have had an abundance of evidence for 40 years to convince me of this truth (even paranoid schizophrenics who believe total nonsense cannot be talked out of their delusions, regardless of the abundance of evidence and perfect logic).

Nor would my many experiences of interacting with the Lord Jesus and seeing miraculous cures ever convince you. For example, my father (a surgeon) was diagnosed with terminal cancer and given at most two years to live… it had metastasized throughout his body and even into the bones. He was a very scientifically-minded and quiet man, and yet he stood up in church during the announcements and announced that God had healed him. Very much not like him to do something like that. A month later he went to his scheduled treatment and evaluation in the big cancer hospital in Texas… and THEY COULD NOT FIND THE CANCER! No sign of it. He lived a number more years without the cancer… but eventually it came back (we are ALL going to die of something some day, so no miracle is permanent except the spiritual one). I have many more true stories involving clients, but of course you would just explain them away.

So I have no expectation of moving you toward faith in Christ. IF you were an honest agnostic and seeker with no commitment to either belief or disbelief, you might get a copy of “The Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel (he also wrote “The Case for Faith.” I do not expect you to do so, but if even one seeker after spiritual truth is listening here and checks it out, I will not have wasted my time on this thread.

Happy Thanksgiving, Steve. I truly hope that you have a lot to be thankful for.
- Bruce

BTW there’s a thought struck me even while a schoolboy.

Isaiah is “Yeshayahu” which means, roughly, “God is salvation”

Jesus = Yeshua = roughly “God is salvation”

It is quite possible that the “suffering servant” is Isaiah’s melodramatic way of referring to his own travails. He may have been the prototype “Yiddishe Mama”.

We also really don’t know whether Isaiah wrote the whole book of Isaiah. Remember, books, chapters, verses etc were introduced later.

Sorry, lost track of this thread.

Could the creator of the universe had become incarnated as an itinerant preacher?

I presume he could have. But there’s not evidence he did.

Could the creator have dictated the koran word for word, syllable for syllable, phoneme for phoneme to some dude called Muhammad via an “angel” called Gibril.

Again, I assume he could have. But there’s no evidence that he did.

In fact there’s no evidence that any of humanity’s so-called “holy books” are anything other than fantasies.

And what can we know about the creator anyway? For all I know Kurt Vonnegut Jnr got it right. He’s “God the utterly indifferent.”

For all I know we are some insignificant and unintended consequence in a universe whose purpose, if any, is far beyond our ken.

As for being “saved” I’m pretty sure I know what will happen when I shuck this mortal coil.

Nothing.

Nothing can happen to someone who does not exist and I shall no longer exist. There will be no more me.

Bruce Atkinson:

I went to a Jewish school. We studied the whole Bible in Hebrew. I also read and, in fact, studied the so-called “New” Testament in detail.

Yes, there are parts of the OT – esp Isaiah – that I suppose could be interpreted as a prophecy of Jesus. But Israel as the “suffering servant” was a common bit of Jewish self-importance at the time. “We’re chosen. We’re God’s suffering servant”

None of you have given me any evidence that your religion, as opposed to any other religion, is anything other than a fantasy.

And if the bible really is the “word” of the creator of the universe why should it contain tall stories about a global flood for which we can find no evidence and an ark which carried examples of all animals?

BTW here’s something the writer of that particular tall story did not know. Land plants drown when submerged. There could have been no dove with an olive leaf.

I mean gimme a break. You’re asking me to accept a lot of very hard to believe stories as some sort of divine message with zero evidence.

Not even one shred of hard evidence.

To Steven Meyer
You accept (for the sake of this discussion) that God created this universe and the humanity to which we all belong. Why should God not reveal himself as a member of this humanity and perform miracles.

I replied in disqus but I do not see it here, so I hope it is not a repetition.

Steven Meyer,
Why should you believe the Gospel story about who Jesus is? The short and very personal answer: It is the only way to be saved for eternity … now and after you die… you will not truly die but be resurrected into a body that cannot die. If you refuse to believe, then I think you know what happens. We ALL deserve hell and will end up there if we do not believe in Jesus… who is the only divine ticket out of that alternative. But to be more specific…

I guess you need to read the New Testament and the prophecies about the coming Messiah in the Old Testament. This has convinced billions of people. However, some people who have read it are not convinced. If you sincerely in your heart of hearts do not want to believe in Jesus as the Son of God and Savior (God in human form), then no amount of evidence or rational argument will convince you. So why should I waste my time?

However, instead of being a committed atheist, if you are an honest agnostic, then I would recommend the excellent book by Lee Strobel entitled “The Case for Christ” and the fun little book by Josh McDowell “More Than a Carpenter.” And I really need more space here than is allowed to have my own say, but I will at least assert the following:.
The New Testament writers testify as to the true identity of Jesus (see John 1, Colossians 1:15-23, Acts 2:22-40) but of course the book cannot “prove” to everyone’s satisfaction that He is who He said He is and who His disciples believed He was. The earliest followers of Jesus all seemed convinced that Jesus was fully God in human form. Paul wrote in Colossians 1, “He is the image of the invisible God…in Him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell.”

It was believed by the Hebrews that only God could truly forgive sins. And Peter said, “everyone who believes in Him [Jesus Christ] receives forgiveness of sins through His name.” More telling, the all-important question Jesus put to those who followed Him was, “Who do you say I am?” When Peter answered and said, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God” (Matthew 16:15-18), Jesus was not shocked, nor did He rebuke Peter. On the contrary, He commended him! “Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are ‘Peter’ and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.” And even the doubting Thomas, when confronted with the resurrected Jesus, said, “My Lord and my God!” Again, Jesus did not contradict his disciple.

Did Jesus ever identify himself as God? According to the Bible…absolutely! Below are some of his statements made while on earth. Feel free to check out their context. These quotes are from the NIV (please compare other versions):. The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself, and went out of the temple. (John 8:57-59) “I and the Father are one.” The Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God. ““Why do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.” (John 10:30-38) And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me does not believe in Me, but in Him who sent Me. And he who beholds Me beholds the One who sent Me. I have come as light into the world, that everyone who believes in Me may not remain in darkness.” (John 12:44-46) Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; from now on you know Him, and have seen Him.” Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?” (John 14:6-9) Martha therefore said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.” Jesus said to her, “Your brother shall rise again.” Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?” She said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world.” (John 11:21-27) Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.” Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!” Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” (John 20:27-29)

The prologue to the Gospel of John should be read and reread, for it emphasizes the pre-existence of Jesus as the Word of God who IS God. Later in that Gospel, we read Jesus Himself saying: “The words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life.” (John 6:63) And in Matthew: “Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.” (Matt 24:35)

Steven,
What is the purpose of Jesus’ existence?

His purpose is to become the perfect sacrifice.

We are all sinners, even worse we have inherited sin.

Unless the sin is compensated, unless the fine is paid, we cannot enter heaven, we cannot come close to God.

Through the cross, Jesus, the perfect and final sacrifice, the perfect lamb, paid off out fines, our debt, our “Schuld” to God, that we cannot pay off ourselves.

That was the purpose of Jesus’ life on earth.

Only condition: we have to accept Jesus.

Bruce Atkinson, and others,

As I said from the beginning, let’s assume there is enough evidence to prove a creator “God” exists.

I’m not going to argue this point. In fact, for the purposes of this discussion I shall stipulate: God exists..

Now tell me why I should believe this God got incarnated as an itinerant preacher, that he went around performing miracles including raising his friend, Lazarus, from the dead. That he got crucified, resurrected himself and then ascended to heaven.

This sounds like a tall tale and it almost certainly is.

Explain why it isn’t.

Don’t give me a long story about whether there’s enough evidence to prove the existence of God. For the purposes of this discussion I’ve already stipulated he does.

Just explain to me why I should believe the Gospel story of incarnation and resurrection is anything other than a tall tale.

That’s all I’m interested in seeing. Nothing else.

There is absolutely enough evidence for all of us to believe in a Creator God, if a person had even a slight inclination to so believe. Many people of course hate the idea of being subject to an all-powerful, all-knowing, and all-righteous God. They do not want a God and they are holding out for being their own little gods. And God has wisely bequeathed all of us with sufficient choice to choose against our own best welfare, even against all rationality.

I recommend to our readers on this site to examine the excellent book by Norman Geisler and Frank Turek “I Don’t Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist” and Josh McDowell’s two volume set, “Evidence That Demands a Verdict.” And… far beyond the evidence of this amazingly beautiful and orderly universe, God communicates with me in many surprising ways on a regular basis. Of course, like billions before me, that is my own personal experience and testimony… and it would never convince someone who does not want to believe in God.
And perhaps that is the point. You go your way and I’ll go with Jesus.

No. Not everyone thinks we live in a creation, therefore everyone understands there must be a creator.

They do not think?

“Everybody sees, that we live in a creation, so everybody understands that there must be a creator, and with some thinking, we can deduct, what the properties of that creator must be.”

Not sure they do.

Emberson, yes we need proof, and I think we have a right to get proof.

Everybody sees, that we live in a creation, so everybody understands that there must be a creator, and with some thinking, we can deduct, what the properties of that creator must be.

Proof must be in the form of miracles. Why? Because the creator, who has created the natural laws, time and space, is outside of these laws. Hence, such miracles must be outside of natural laws.

Our Religion has many miracles, for instance Fatima, and of course, the resurrection of Jesus from the dead.

It is now your job to examine the eye-witness accounts.

I think most people do not want to examine, are really not open to the result of that investigation, because they do not want to accept the authority of God, even or perhaps because he exists.

In other words, they do not want to believe. It is a free choice.

Bruce, I have read the bible, a few times. So you do not teach me that Jesus has used parables, that David has composed psalms.

Everybody listening or reading the parables and psalms understands that, clearly marked and through context.

Your reference to Peter is too far away to classify the whole creation story in Genesis as a metaphor.

It is obvious that it is not written as a metaphor but as a report of a historical event.

The reasons you have for interpreting Genesis as a metaphor are, that you believe Albert Einstein and Charles Darwin. But do not forget, that these fellows are human. Hence, they can lie and just make mistakes, even very big ones. And I think, there are big mistakes in their hypotheses, so big that we have to reject them. By the way, that is the scientific approach: you reject a hypothesis when you find out that it is false, you do not keep it, just because you want to keep it.

Thanks for the link to the article, Bruce.

I’m not sure it makes anything clearer, however. The central thesis of the piece seems to be, god only reveals himself to those who are willing to believe in him. And even then, he doesn’t reveal himself in any commonly understood sense of the word, you just have someone who ‘believes’ he is there.

“I believe in god because I want to believe in god.”

That is not proof of existence. That’s just saying the word of god is the bible because the bible says it’s the word of god.

Perhaps Bertrand Russel sums it up best -

“Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them. This is, of course, a mistake. If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.”

For some reason, god only seemed to know as much as the average person living in the desert 2700 years ago.

What a coincidence.