Tickle vs Giggle: an Australian judge cancels women’s right to exist

Tickle vs Giggle sounds like a children’s game. Game it is, but not for children. It is a high stakes Australian legal battle to determine what a woman is.

The first round was won in the Federal Court last week by transgender activist Roxanne Tickle. Justice Robert Bromwich ruled that the owner of a women-only app called “Giggle for Girls”, Sall Grover, must pay A$10,000 plus costs (capped at $50,000) to Tickle. Giggle allegedly discriminated against Tickle by excluding Tickle from the app.

Grover plans to appeal.

Tickle vs Giggle has attracted international attention and could influence the definition of “woman” in other jurisdictions. Here’s the background.

Tickle lives in Queensland. He was born as a male, but in 2017 began living as a woman. In 2018 the state government issued a new birth certificate with his current name. In 2019, he had gender-affirming surgery and in 2020 the state government reissued his birth certificate as a female. And in 2021 Tickle, now legally a “she”, signed up for the Giggle app.

Giggle was the brainchild of Sall Grover, an Australian who had worked for years in Hollywood as a scriptwriter. She had had her fill of #MeToo style abuse there and wanted to create a woman-only virtual space.

Applicants to Giggle were required to submit a photo which was screened with AI image recognition software. Tickle initially passed the vetting process, but Grover discovered that he (she insists on using that pronoun) had invaded Giggle’s space. She booted him off.

Tickle indignantly sued for $200,000 under the Sex Discrimination Act (SDA), alleging that exclusion from Giggle led to “constant anxiety and occasional suicidal thoughts”. Tickle also demanded that Grover issue a written apology. 

The SDA, which has been amended several times to make it more trans-friendly since it was promulgated in 1984, clearly protects transgender people. But the original idea of a Sex Discrimination Act was to protect women. The unamended 1984 version was binary to the bone. It said that the Act’s purpose was to promote equality between men and women and to eliminate discrimination against “persons” on the ground of sex, marital status or pregnancy. Paradoxically, then, a law written to protect women from male aggression has been transformed into a law to protect men who want to invade women's privacy. 

Grover maintains that she was excluding men from a women-only space.

The vision was [she said] to create a little corner of the Internet where women from all over the world could have a refuge away from men. It could be for serious reasons, very superficial reasons, or very practical reasons. It would be a place without harassment, “mansplaining”, “dick pics”, stalking, and aggression, and other male patterned online behaviour. A place to vent and get advice from other women and find out what was happening in the real world in a female-only environment.

In her view, Tickle was a man and therefore had no right to use the app. Tickle maintained that his birth certificate proves that he is a woman.

Both parties agreed that Tickle had been discriminated against; they differed on whether Tickle could change sex.

Justice Bromwich has backed the transgender side. For the past 30 or so years, he wrote, Australian legislation has assumed that sex is “changeable and not necessarily binary”. Sex is merely a matter of legal definition and has nothing to do with chromosomes, anatomy, genitalia, or hormones: “it is legally sufficient that Ms Tickle is recorded as female on her updated Queensland birth certificate for her to be, at law, of the female sex.” He went on to declare:

The concept of sex has broadened further over the 30 years since SRA, especially by reason of the wide scope that now exists for legally changing the sex of a person on official birth records. The acceptance that Ms Tickle is correctly described as a woman, reinforcing her gender identity status for the purposes of this proceeding, and therefore for the purposes of bringing her present claim of gender identity discrimination, is legally unimpeachable.

This sounds remarkably like Humpty-Dumpty lecturing Alice:

`When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor less.'

Mark the word “scornful” – it describes the tone of Humpty-Dumpty Bromwich in this judgement.

Gender identity is well-trodden ground in the media, legal circles and university lecture rooms, but the fundamental question remains unanswered. If Roxanne Tickle can identify as the opposite sex, why can’t he identify as a snail or kangaroo or cockroach? Or as a kindergartener who needs to be adopted? Or as 95-year-old who needs a pension? Or as an Aboriginal? Justice Bromwich refused to engage with these obvious objections.  

 

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Ripples

The judge’s handling of this controversial issue could ripple internationally. Why? The SDA is an Australian law, but it incorporates the UN Convention on the Elimination of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW), which Australia ratified in 1983. CEDAW did not define what a woman is, although it was written in 1979 when it was obvious that a woman was a human being with XX chromosomes. However, common sense is being tossed out the window everywhere and Justice Bromwich’s interpretation could influence other jurists when they examine CEDAW.

His ruling is completely bonkers. Its effect is to relegate being a woman to just one more of the 46 or 78 or 127 different categories on the gender spectrum. Australia’s most famous feminist, the firebrand Germaine Greer, summed up its insanity a few years ago in two profane but profound sentences:

 “Just because you lop off your d**k and then wear a dress doesn't make you a ******* woman. I’ve asked my doctor to give me long ears and liver spots and I’m going to wear a brown coat but that won’t turn me into a ******* cocker spaniel."

Greer and other TERFs are not alone. The UN’s Special Rapporteur on Violence against Women and Girls, Reem Alsalem, a Jordanian, submitted her analysis of CEDAW and other international treaties to Justice Bromwich. However, it arrived too late to be taken into consideration – and it was also too unfavourable to Tickle. Fundamentally Ms Alsalem agreed with Ms Greer, albeit more soberly. She argued that:

While not addressing or defining the terms “sex” or “gender”, many foundational human rights treaties, and declarations, including CEDAW, enshrine a prohibition of discrimination based on sex which can only be taken to mean as referring to biological sex.

What lies ahead?

Perhaps some good will come out of Tickle vs Giggle.

First, political insight. It shows that clearing a path through the woods for transgender rights means turning women’s rights into a smoldering wilderness. It effectively cancels women.

Second, philosophical insight. It focuses minds on the claim that gender makes biological sex irrelevant. But this is wrong both philosophically and logically. Gender refers to the way a person presents socially and feels about himself. But “gender” makes no sense without the male-female binary. To assert that one is “pansexual”, for instance, means that one is attracted to all genders, not just to male or female. The binary is inescapably embedded in any description of human sexuality. If male and female are empty signifiers, so are all the other genders. Sex becomes a useless, meaningless passion. 

At least Justice Bromwich managed to make contact with the reality of human nature at the end of his judgment. He decided not to force Grover to apologise to Tickle.

It is plain that any apology given by Ms Grover, and any apology given by her on behalf of Giggle, would be through clenched teeth and utterly devoid of sincerity. She would be doing no more than saying she was sorry, but she would not in fact be sorry at all.

He affirmed Grover’s right to be angry. Hopefully, when Grover appeals, Australia’s High Court will affirm women’s right to be women.


Can "woman" be defined? Tell us in the comments box below. 


Michael Cook is editor of Mercator 

Image credit: Roxanne Tickle / ABC News screenshot 


 

Showing 17 reactions

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  • Steven Meyer
    commented 2024-09-02 21:18:28 +1000
    Janet Grevillea

    I think it would be worth a try. There are some very exclusive exclusive men’s only clubs in Australia. They’re open only to people with a “Y” chromosome.

    I would love to see a judge try to craft a decision which declared XX only clubs illegal without simultaneously making XY only clubs illegal.

    And it would be interesting to see the reaction if a trans man tried to join an XY club.

    I don’t think the Australian Human Rights Commission would want to stir up that particular hornets’ nest.

    Once you’ve established the principle of an XX club you can keep pushing the boundaries

    For the record, I do not take seriously conservative Christians professing concern for the rights of Lesbian women.
  • Janet Grevillea
    Steven Meyer, I would predict that the Australian Human Rights Commission would be quick to find such a requirement illegal. That’s how things are in Australia right now.
  • Steven Meyer
    commented 2024-09-02 17:03:35 +1000
    Janet Grevillea

    I’ll leave aside the unconvincing charade of conservative Christians pretending to be concerned for the rights of gay men and lesbian women.

    My sympathy in this and similar cases is with the XX variety of women be they lesbian or cis. I suggest they set themselves up as private “double X” clubs. The entry requirement is a DNA sample that proves they have two X and zero Y chromosomes.
  • Janet Grevillea
    Today the Australian Lesbian Action Group is in court appealing a recent decision of the Australian Human Rights Commission that men can be lesbians and that all public lesbian events must include men who identify as lesbians. Without that ‘inclusion’ lesbians cannot meet openly. The hearing will last for two days.
  • Steven Meyer
    commented 2024-09-01 10:41:50 +1000
    mrscracker, do students still have parties like that?

    As a sophomores a friend and I set up COPWAC – Committee Of People With Alternate Chirality. In other words we were the lefties aka southpaws.

    We called our charter the “Sinister Agenda”. Among our “demands” was toilet paper dispensers on both of the bowl and doors with handles on both sides.

    Does anyone still do that stuff on college campuses?

    It was strange. As science students we had three hours of lectures every morning followed by labs and tutorials in the afternoons. We also had regular tests and exams. At the end of the final semester of my sophomore year I had six three-hour exams and a physics lab test. I reckon during term time we were putting in 50 hour weeks. During vacation we all worked jobs. Yet we still had time to get up to high jinks and sports.

    And, BTW, our exam and test results were posted on a physical bulletin board in alphabetical order. Anyone could check up on our grades. If you flunked everyone knew you had flunked.

    How did we do it?
  • mrscracker
    It doesn’t sound like things change much at college parties over the decades Mr..Steven
    🙂
  • Steven Meyer
    commented 2024-08-31 16:19:56 +1000
    mrscracker, a long time ago in a galaxy far away – to be precise at the University of Cape Town in 1964, some women set up WoLF (Women’s Liberation Front)

    The university had a rule that all clubs that made use of university facilities had to be open to all registered students. It was a rule that kind of made sense when it was first promulgated decades before the advent of WoLF.

    Anyway, we formed MOUSE (Men Of the University Stop ’Em) and joined WoLF en masse.

    The president of WoLF organised a welcoming party for us. Yeah, I know, today that sounds crazy. Back then we didn’t take ourselves so seriously.

    It was a party none of us will forget. It was my first encounter with a brew manufactured by a certain Mr. Daniels of Lynchburg in the great state of Tennessee in the US of A.

    I say none of us will forget it but I should have added none of us will forget what happened before we passed out. In my case that was around midnight on the rugby field after spending about 15 minutes hurling my guts out.

    Strangely it seems none of the women touched Mr Daniels’ concoction. It was just the Y chromosomed who got motherless. I suspect a plot.

    O Tempora O Mores.
  • mrscracker
    I’m sure they will Mr. Szabo. Each era has its own dangerous delusions & social contagions.
  • Christopher Szabo
    commented 2024-08-30 20:19:06 +1000
    I can’t help wondering whether in 50 or 100 years time people will look back on the countries that have this crazy ‘legislation’ and compare it to the times of the Witchfinder General or the rise of Lenin or Hitler. Nuts!
  • Janet Grevillea
    This discussion of XX misses the point that in Australia the anti-discrimination law has been changed to eliminate any mention or definition of “woman” and “man” and to privilege gender over sex. So anyone who claims to be a woman, is a woman. No X or Y is needed, just your own definition of yourself. Anyone who claims to be a man, is a man. Single-sex events and gatherings are now illegal.
  • mrscracker
    “But I also think they should just call themselves “Double X”

    I am curious tho’. Suppose you wanted an app for, say, people of Greek descent. Would they be compelled to accept me if I state I “identify as Greek”?"
    **********
    Both good points Mr. Steven. You could create a site linked to a commercial DNA testing lab. The results would take care of the XX and/or Greek ethnic eligibility questions.
    If you’re a woman & demand a DNA testing company show you your father’s Y DNA group through your own sample you discover pretty quickly how chromosomes & DNA work & what that excludes.
  • Janet Grevillea
    I have heard Sall Grover saying that Tickle was only one of thousands of men who tried to invade the Giggle app. It seems there are some (many) men who just can’t abide women having their own space.
  • Tim Lee
    Push the envelope of decency far enough and you end up with the lunatics running the asylum.
  • Steven Meyer
    commented 2024-08-29 10:04:00 +1000
    What would happen if Giggle rebranded itself as the “Double X App” for people with two X chromosomes?

    Have to say I cannot take this as seriously as, say, allowing trans women to compete in women’s sports. So far as I can see, I could easily create a fake online identity as a woman and join Giggle myself. Did I actually do this?

    However I agree that the court decision is ridiculous.

    If you feels strongly about it you can fund their appeal.

    https://gigglecrowdfund.com/

    I gave them $20.

    But I also think they should just call themselves “Double X”

    I am curious tho’. Suppose you wanted an app for, say, people of Greek descent. Would they be compelled to accept me if I state I “identify as Greek”?

    Would an app for trans women be forced to accept non-trans women?
  • Roger Symes
    commented 2024-08-29 09:23:00 +1000
    I’m 64 and some friends say that “age is just a number”. Some days my foggy eyes tell me I’m 84. I wish to be 24 again and when I feel like I can run rings around those old fogeys and start dating young women, I’d like to apply for a birth certificate that says I was born in 2000. Unfortunately, I don’t think I’d get away with it, ageism being one of the last ‘isms’ to be redefined.
  • mrscracker
    “In 2019, he had gender-affirming surgery…”
    ********
    That’s a pretty good example of Newspeak. If castration affirms gender, then everything’s up for grabs.
    :)
  • Michael Cook
    published this page in The Latest 2024-08-29 01:33:57 +1000